Nutrition Expert, Dr. Chris Knobbe Exposes The Top 4 Ways Seed Oils Destroy Your Health

0:00 – Intro to Chris’s Background

3:04 – What Is Driving Chronic Diseases?

10:53 – Saturated Fat & Vegetable Oil Vs. Heart Disease Deaths

16:05 – Obesity & Vegetable

24:45 – Sugar & Vegetable Vs. Debates

29:44 – Sugar & Vegetable Oil Vs. Cancer

41:15 – Will Removing Sugar From Diet Fix Your Blood Sugar

43:53 – Linoleic Acid & Cancer

47:29 – Why Retrospective Observational Epidemiological Studies Are Important

53:38 – The Problem Only Relying On Human Randomized Control Trials

57:04 – The Mechanism Behind PUFA Being Harmful

Welcome to the Mike Fave podcast. I’m your host Ethan Wright, joined by Mike Fave and Dr. Chris Kenobi. On this podcast, Mike and I help you make sense of the online health chaos while providing you with solutions to revive your health. In today’s episode, we are quite excited to invite Dr. Chris Kenobi to discuss the toxicity of seed oils, a topic that he has covered extensively in his latest book, the Ancestral Diet Revolution.

Dr. Kenobi is a physician and an ophthalmologist. Turn nutrition researcher, renowned speaker and public health advocate. Dr. Kenobi’s public health research goes hand in hand with Mike’s direct client work, where he incorporates the same principles that Dr. Kenobi discusses in his book directly in the dietary strategies with his clients.

So for today’s podcast, we are going to look at the broad picture of seed oils using Dr. Kenobi’s latest book as a reference, discuss the mechanisms by which they damage our health, and then provide you with an inside look at the very strategies that Mike incorporates with his clients inside this program to recover their health with this.

Thanks for joining us today, Dr. Kenobi. Before we jump in, maybe give us a quick rundown on how you got interested on the topic of seed oils. Yeah. Thank you Ethan. Thank you, Mike. It’s an honor and pleasure to be on your show really, guys. I appreciate it so much. And, uh, I got here out of my own suffering, which for me really, uh, started with arthritis when I was 33 years old.

And I, I sort of went down a paleo pathway back in 2011 and, um, this radically changed my arthritis, the whole course of it. And it just sent me on a journey to try to understand what. Nutrition’s all about and what, you know, how, how nutrition makes us healthy and how alternatively, uh, westernized diets, processed foods drive disease, and what, you know, what are the real factors.

So that’s basically it. And I, Mike, I know you have experience, uh, reading some of Chris’s work, right? I had seen Chris’s presenta presentations on omega six polyunsaturated fats while I was into the whole p paleo, intermittent fasting low carb sphere in high school. So I remember watching presentations, I think it was from one of the ancestral health summits or something like this, where you were going through and, and showing some of the, the trends with polyunsaturated fat and seed oil consumption and the different diseases.

So this is kind of like, it’s coming full circle. It’s actually a, uh, an honor to be on the podcast together and I, and talk about these topics. That’s really neat. Yeah. Like I said, it makes me, uh, makes me feel even older. That you were doing, you were doing this in high school, Mike, and now you’re, you’re here because I have immense respect for your work.

Um, what you’ve done. Um, trying to understand metabolic pathways is just, uh, it’s just phenomenal. You’re really a leader in this and that’s why I wanted to connect with you. So, so anyway, thank you for having me on. Yeah, I appreciate it, Chris. Thank you very much. We, we appreciate you coming on and talking with us.

So with this, how did we get, so obese, diabetic, have so much heart disease, cancer, and other chronic diseases. What do you think is the primary driving factor here upfront? I think it’s, spoiler alert. We kind of know what the deal is, but I want to get into what do you think is a factor and then we’ll look at some of the data that supports this and then run from there.

Does that work? Yeah, that’s the right question for, uh, at least for me. Um, so I think in two words, we got here through processed foods. Um. So in, in essence, you know, when I started going down this, you know, this deep rabbit hole way back about, um, about 12 years ago, um, there, there weren’t many people that had ever really looked at the history of overweight, obesity, coronary heart disease, cancer, metabolic syndrome, Alzheimer’s, age-related macular degeneration.

It just mostly is not there. I mean, it. You know, I went to a traditional orthodox allopathic medical school, university of Colorado School of Medicine. And I graduated in 19 90, 35 years ago. Um, and there really wasn’t any nutrition taught. I mean, none. And if there was any, I assure you that it was wrong.

And so when, so like I said back about 2013, I really started to investigate the prevalence of all of these, these, uh, dis diseases. And, you know, one by one I just cut coming and it took a long, long time. In fact, I’m still looking at some of this history, but, but one by one I started discovering that, um, all of these conditions were once rare in the 19th century.

And some of them just. Plainly didn’t exist. And so we can get into those examples later. But, um, but anyway, uh, so they, yes, indeed, you know, these all parallel processed foods. Um, however, what I really want to know, which I think everybody would wanna know is, is what is it that’s, what are the most, um. The, the, the primary factors are the major factors that are driving all of this disease.

And so this is where I’ve started trying to, you know, um, over the, especially over the last, well decade, the tease apart, what it really is. So I’ve been looking at, um, the consumption of, um, the primary processed food component, sugar and vegetable oils, and, uh, even refined white flowers. But it, when you start looking at all of this evidence, what happens is you, you start seeing that there’s these extraordinary correlations, call them associations between all of these conditions and meaning.

Meaning again, obesity. Coronary heart disease, cancers, metabolic syndrome, Alzheimer’s, age-related macular degeneration, even autoimmune diseases. All of these diseases are strongly correlated with vegetable oils and we don’t see that correlate. These correlations kind of start falling apart when we look at sugars, which I know you’re prepared to do that with me today.

So, so we, you know, if we look at, if we look at total calories, if we look at carbohydrates, if we look at sugar, the correlations start falling apart and we can, and then we can get into, you know, why, why does this matter? Why is the correlation so so powerful? But in it, it absolutely is. And in my perspective, I think there’s probably multiple components beyond just seed oil component, but I think the seed component Oh, absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah. I think we probably agree on, even inside the book, you discuss micronutrient deficiencies rampant in the client population that I’m seeing, even if they’re on some of these different diets that create nutrient deficiencies or imbalances and things like this. So I think there’s, you have nutrient deficiencies, but you also have toxicity from the food supply.

And the question is, I think not, is it carbs or is it fats? The question is what specifically is that component? Is it a specific type of fat? Is it, is it a combination of this specific type of fat with different, with other elements like re refined food products? What are these things? Because I think it’s.

There’s one, there’s a, these factors are coinciding and synergizing together to create the problem, but there’s one major one that I think stands out. And so your book, I think does an excellent job covering this and the, the, the first, what we want to do here is we want to talk about, I think the big four diseases, the big killers that we’re seeing in the, in, in Western society.

So heart disease, obesity, diabetes, cancer. People who have listened to us before, I think know what the deal is, but I think it’s the way that you lay it out in the book I think is excellent. So I want to actually. Um, ha bring up the graphs here. We’ll start with heart disease, and then go through and look at some of the, the correlations between the carbohydrate consumption, sugar consumption, and then also seed oil consumption.

And kind of tease out which one is the major, the major problem here, and I should probably just, um, point out, Mike, that, um, a lot of people when I present about the dangers of vegetable oils I see on YouTube that they try to pigeonhole me into that. Well, I just, my belief is that it’s just all vegetable oils, and we’ve already mentioned that.

I don’t believe that. I never have. Um, I’ve been presenting around the world since 2016, um, when you saw me when you were in high school and, uh. And I’ve always said, you know, that the three major issues are, you know, are vegetable oils, refined flour and refined sugars. And that’s the three primary, primary components of processed foods.

But there’s, there’s almost infinite, um, problems that also are. Potential drivers of obesity and chronic disease. And like you just mentioned, as a public health advocate, which is what I am, I try to, you know, hone in on what are the big problems and then take that to the public so people can make very simple changes in their diet to affect huge results.

I’ll just say right now I do think that we could resolve 90% of our, um, obesity and chronic disease with in one fell swoop with removing vegetable oils. Um, but then there’s, you know, a lot of us are gonna suffer from other issues, lots of other issues. I think all of us, you know, we get, we get trapped in these, these ideals about diets, thinking that this is what will rescue me.

And sometimes it does and sometimes not for the reasons that we think so anyway. I probably said too much, but that’s probably just a little bit I want to add to the introduction so that people don’t think of that, you know, don’t, don’t put me in a pigeonhole. And I think that one point that you made that was e like is extremely important, is that when you go on some of these diets, you change so many different factors simultaneously beyond just carb or fat content.

In, in terms of types of foods, micronutrient components, what happens with the microbiome, what happens with the hormonal profile that it’s hard to pin down? Yeah, I just, you know, I just, I just don’t eat plant foods and that, like it was just the plant foods. It’s like there’s, there’s a variety of things that come with that.

And one of the big ones across a lot of these diets, particularly in the low carb keto sphere, paleos spheres, is the avoidance of high amounts of polyunsaturated fats from seed oils. And so I think that’s, you know, you can find some of the trends there as well. And that’s what I see is with clients as well, is they’re, they’re changing things that improve a variety of their different symptoms and they’re pinning it to carbs.

And they’re pinning it to fats, and there’s more to the story than, than these dichotomies that were being presented in different spheres. But with that, let’s, let’s jump in to the, to the heart disease graph here and take a look at, um, or start to talk about the relationship between heart disease, c oil consumption versus saturated fat consumption.

And then we’ll look at, at a carbohydrate as well for those who are, are viewing this. Um, um, you can see that vegetable oils in the black curve there, um, have a very, very strong. Correlational relationship with the heart disease deaths. And um, and then we see, so the heart disease deaths in the red line there.

And then, um, and then we have saturated fat in the purple line. And it’s, this is over the last century. This is 1900 to, uh, 2020, uh, roughly. And, um, and what, so what we see is that saturated fat increased about five grams through the 20th century. Yep. And, um, so it virtually did not change. And I, I, I would submit to you, and I’ve said this before, that, that had we been able to publish this graph back in 1959, um, maybe somewhere in there, I think it might have ended this whole.

Um, belief system that it’s all about that. It’s, you know, the saturated fat’s the problem, how could it possibly be the problem? We see no correlation there whatsoever. So when saturated fat was very high back in 1900, you know, almost the same as it is today, um, when there was no coronary heart disease, right?

And so, yeah, this is what people need to realize. The other thing that you point out in the book that’s also I think, important is that one you discussed the interplay with smoking that changed some of these components, but smoking has tailed off significantly since the 1960s. And then I think it’s 1950s, 1960s somewhere.

’cause you had the surgeon general come out and basically say like, Hey, this probably isn’t good for us. And then you’re seeing that the heart disease deaths are tailing off to some extent, but the change in care that’s occurred to manage cardiovascular mortality has been significant. Right? So it’s even if you’re seeing the amount of deaths tail off.

From around 1990 to 2020, even though seed oils are starting to pick up a little bit, you have other confounding factors that may be at play here related to the management of cardiovascular disease, changes in detection, and then change in medication regimens, surgical procedures and stuff like this.

Like when I was working in the cardiac ICU, like people would come in with a heart attack. It’s like, okay, here’s your aspirin, here’s some oxygen, here’s your, you know, here’s the morphine. We’re gonna get you to the cath lab. Don’t worry about it. Like it wasn’t that much that big of a deal anymore. And in the past you have the, the widowmaker heart attacks, right?

People were dying very easily from heart attacks ’cause the management has wasn’t the same as it is now. It’s been, it’s being managed significantly. So I think a potential portion of this change, and I think you also cover this, or men make mention of some of these components in the book may be related to changes in some of the medical management of it.

Uh, and not necessarily just because of, of the dietary change. So that could shift the curves a little bit. Does that, does that sound about right? So if people just look at the graph and they say, well, if you know VE oil are driving coronary heart disease, then why? Are the vegetable oils still going up and the heart disease deaths are going down?

And you, you already mentioned it. So the, the, the, the second factor in my view that’s driving coronary heart disease after vegetable oils is smoking. And smoking started trending downwards in the United States in 1960. Um, just as you said, just so the, the, um, um, the surgeon general. Recommended that we stop smoking, uh, that cigarette smoke is dangerous to our health.

I, I think around the late fifties, um, and when they started connecting that cigarette smoking was driving lung cancer and, uh, so that’s why they originally advised this. But anyway, so that had a, a great effect on it. And yes, I do think, you know, manage particularly management of hypertension, which for example, was not available through the 1940s.

So just managing hypertension, you know, medically has probably brought down coronary heart disease as well. Some of the questions that we’re seeing with like, use of statin drugs, you may lower cholesterol and lower cardiovascular events to some extent in some of the trials, depending on how they’re set up.

But then that doesn’t change things like diabetes, obesity, et cetera. And by the way, just for the audience’s reference, these graphs are produced. Buy you in your book. So these are actually your guys’ graphs that, that you, that you furnish in the book and you go into detail explaining the different relationships, um, which is actually really helpful.

So I would recommend if people really want to get into the nitty gritty of these graphs to actually pick up the book again, the Ancestral Health Revolution and all of the data on vegetable, sugar, carbohydrates, total calories, all of that comes from published sources. Most of it comes from the either the U uh, the USDA, um, but the bulk of it comes from the Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations, the FAO.

So obesity, for those who don’t know, is only 1.2% in men age 18 to 80 in the late 19th century. So the last several decades. Of the century. Scott Allen. Carson did that work. He looked at, um, prisoners, um, that were all men. So there wasn’t any data on women. But anyway, the obesity was 1.2% up through 1900.

And what were the vegetable oils then? About one gram per person. Per day. Yeah. Right. Where he’s pointing that out. And then if you jump over to 1961, um, when obesity had climbed to 13.4%, now this is when everybody thinks that we were lean and fit and healthy, right? Mm-hmm. Well, obesity had risen 11 fold between nineteen hundred and nineteen sixty one.

That’s the next data we have. So, um, but anyway, uh, vegetable oils then were 19 grams a day. Alright? So they had increased 19 fold already, um, by 1961 and then between, and then if you jump all the way to the end where obesity is 42.5% in 2018, well by 2010. VE oil consumption was 80 grams per person per day.

And 80 grams of of fat is 720 calories. That’s 32% of US caloric intake. Think about that, that’s almost a third of our diet. And this is the amount of the FA, this is the FAO data. So the FAO data is the, is the amount of food that reaches the consumer. So the only thing that’s missing here is mostly plate and other kitchen losses.

Um, so you could say that Americans are on average, consuming at least a fourth, and many of them a third or more of their diets coming from vegetable, which didn’t exist in 1865. Um, so again, you, but yes, you see this extraordinary correlation between, um, obesity and vegetable oils and for good reason. But we can get into that later.

And something I wanna point out is that a lot of people don’t even know that they’re eating this much vegetable oil because it’s in all packaged foods, it’s in most restaurants, and then there’s als. A lot of people are also to some extent purchasing it because it’s been branded as heart healthy. So essentially it’s har, it’s ubiquitous in the US diet currently.

And something that’s important to point out is that this means a huge change in the intake of polyunsaturated fatty acids, particularly Omega six polyunsaturated fatty acids. Main one being linoleic acid. But we’ll get to that in just a bit here. That difference is 50 fold. 50 fold between 1900 and 2010.

Exactly is what it is. So you had another graphic in your book that I thought was really interesting, where you basically show seed oil consumption per capita and you show, um, basically I think it’s the rates of obesity of the different countries or you basically have developed countries, US world. Uh, Vietnam, which would’ve had one of the lowest.

Mm-hmm. And it’s also pretty interesting relationships, not just looking at the US data now, but looking across the world. Yeah. Anybody who can see this, you can see that just there’s this extremely powerful corate co correlation that’s, that’s global. Um, with the us. The US consumes more sea oils than any other nation in the world per capita than for example, um, developing countries.

And they’re on average, much significantly more obese, 13.1% obesity in developed countries on average recently in 2000 versus 8.4% of both obesity in developing countries. And yeah, Vietnam was. About the lowest obesity in the whole world. Um, I think they’ve, they have data on about 185 countries. Vietnam is right down there among the very lowest.

And look how low their CTO l consumption is. Just several grams per day. They’re right where we were between nineteen hundred and nineteen oh eight. ’cause we, we were at nine grams a day in 1909 in, in the United States. So that’s where Vietnam is with their seed oil consumption. And look at that obesity 0.2% in year 2000.

And I’m pretty sure they just haven’t been exported western culture and, and dietary customs yet. You know, Asia is slowly, they’re, they’re one of the last, uh, well, it’s a continent, but they’re the, they’re among the last to adopt seed oils. So they’ve really been adopting seed oils since about the late 1950s.

And that’s something to point out with their diets too. Is that a large portion of Asian diets are carbohydrate based. You’re not seeing the levels of obesity in these different countries until they start to shift towards a western diet, despite eating carbohydrate. And I was in the Philippines, I was living there for about six months.

And you can see the change in food consumption versus in the cities, versus being in the rural areas. In the rural areas, it’s kind of, you know, they, they go fishing, they have chickens, they have goats. They’ll, they’ll use coconut stuff like this. And then when you go in and they’re much healthier, much leaner, you start to go into the developed city areas and you start to see a, uh, variety of high temp cooked seed oil products, fried products, things like this, and a continual reuse of that oil, which we’ll talk about as well a little bit later on here.

That be, that becomes highly problematic with some of the, the products that get created. They essentially were on. Relatively high carbohydrate diets. I think Japan was somewhere around 80% of the diet at one point was carbohydrate, and then they really didn’t have that much obesity, diabetes, cancers, things like this.

And then now the, what you discussed in your book, these are drastically changing in, in, in countries like Japan and China. Yeah. And I don’t think we’re gonna get to those here. I might just mention that. Yeah. In Japan, um, carbohydrate consumption in 1958 to 1961 was 84% of the diet, and that’s almost all white rice.

And they, you couldn’t find an obese or diabetic person. Uh, diabetes was 0.02%. That’s two people per 10,000 in 1954. Um, and as their. So between 2004 to 2010, their carbohydrates dropped from 84% down to 56%. And their sugar, I can’t give you exact numbers, but their sugar was dropping after 1989. And so with calories, carbohydrates, and sugar all declining after 1989, obesity in the men doubled from 16 to 32%.

Um, breast cancer in the women up fivefold, just between 1977 and 1997, I think it was diabetes, 0.02% in 1954 was, uh, 6.9%. I think in around 2007 it was up. That’s up 345 fold, by the way. Right. If anything doubles, that’s statistically significant. It’s up 345 fold and age-related macular degeneration, A MDI.

Um, up from 0.2% in the late 1970s to 13.6%. I think it was roughly, um, no, 16.3% I think it was in 2013. That’s up 82 fold. What happened to their vegetable? 19 61, 9 grams a day, 2004 39 grams per day. So their, um, their VE wells went up about four and a half fold again while calories, carbohydrates, sugar, all going down, obesity, breast cancer, all cancers actually, um, all major cancers.

Um, macular degeneration, diabetes through the roof, right? But in, in direct correlation to the vegetable oils. That’s an interesting point too for the people who are kind of advocating for seed oils and saying that it’s just a matter of like energy tech toxicity, and they’re just as guilty as far as like, yeah.

How about percentage of the calories they’re making up of the diet? Like that kind of throws a wrench in that, that idea, right? Yeah. Doesn’t it though? That’s why I love Japan. That’s the quintessential nation to illustrate, illustrate these, these points, you know? Yeah. Um, yeah. The, the, the men in Japan have gotten very sick on this diet.

Yeah. Yep. Which brings us to, this brings us to diabetes in the US in relation to the sugar intake as well. ’cause I, we have another core, like another correlation here from a graph in your book where you basically show that despite a drop. Sugar consumption. Diabetes has increased in the US over time, which parallels the rise in vegetables.

People may not realize 1890 diabetes, um, prevalence in the United States. This is published by Sir William Osler, most famous physician of the last several decades. Um, he was one of the founding, uh, partners, our founding professors of Johns Hopkins in Baltimore. Anyway, he published that data 1892, that the diabetes prevalence in 1890 from the census was 0.0028%.

That’s, to put that in perspective. That’s about one in 36,000 people, and that diabetes prevalence increased to 0.37% by 19 35, 36. Which sounds really small, but that was up 132 fold since 1890. And you see it just goes up to 0.91% by 1960. 1960, I think it is, 2.9699999999999998% by about 1990, all the way to 13% by 2016.

And by the way, this, this is now slightly outdated because there’s new prevalence data on diabetes in the us we’re at 15.8% our, uh, overall total diabetes in the us. But even, but even here, you can see this extraordinary correlation with the vegetable oils all the way through. And you see. You see a, a really, a big disconnect in the sugar consumption, which we can get into.

But you can see the sugar was really high in the 1930 and by 1922 already it was so, so everybody thinks that sugar has just gone through the roof recently, and that’s not true at all. Almost all of the increase in sugar consumption in the United States had taken place before 1920 by 1922, and we’ve had very little changes since 1922.

You can see that’s a fairly, you know, it’s a fairly flat curve. I’ll just say this and that. After 1999, sugar’s going down. While obesity and diabetes go through the roof. Now the graphs will look a little bit different. And that’s, I purposely do this because I’m using data from both the USDA and the, um, FAO, the Food and Agriculture Organization, just to show people, it doesn’t matter where you draw, you, you pull the data, it’s all confirmatory that sugar.

Sugar has been on the decline, um, since 1999. And actually carbohydrates, if we can get an, I don’t know if you have that later, but carbohydrates on the decline after 1997. And again, why is diabetes and, and obesity going through the roof. But there’s, it parallels the vegetable oils. As you can see in one of the studies that you talk about, it’s, it’s a mouse study.

Yeah. But essentially there seems to be threshold effects for saturation of tissues with some of these fats, because it’s like vegetable oil is kind of, it looks like it’s almost linearly going up. And then, but you see like an almost exponential effect to some extent with diabetes. Mm-hmm. So I’m wondering at certain thresholds, and we can talk, we can relate this to some of the mechanisms.

If at certain threshold it just starts to really impair metabolic function. Mitochondrial function. ’cause even you and I were talking via email where you’re saying, well, hey, like in these metabolic states, perhaps there’s just general mitochondrial dysfunction and all substrates potentially have issues with oxidation including both fats and carbs.

And there’s mechanisms by which, by which, uh, polyunsaturated fats, particularly linoleic gastro or omega six polyunsaturated fats could be inducing some of these problems. So that, that’s something that I was. When I was reading your book that I was starting to think about this again, I’m not saying that there’s confirmatory data for like a saturation point for diabetes and seed oils, but in general my thoughts as I’m reading this is like maybe there’s certain, at different saturation points, you start to see circumstances where metabolic function declines even further with diabetes being indicative and earlier you’re measuring it based on blood glucose.

But general mitochondrial dysfunction, which we, I’ve covered in other videos and then Jay and I have covered in other videos as well, I call vegetable wells, chronic metabolic, biological poison. Um, and the relationships are not one to one, you know, one step up, one increase in diabetes, for example, or with obesity, in fact be so be like between 1960 and 1980, obesity didn’t hardly increase at all.

In the US it stayed about 13, 14%. But the oce oils were going up. So anyway, my point here is that there isn’t, there’s an S-curve with, with the, you know, with the, in these relationship, some relationships sometimes. And that’s what may be, you know, there may be some of that going on with diabetes too, just as you, like, you just, uh, mentioned, so the last one, let’s dig into cancer a bit.

This is the United States, and this is cancer deaths versus vegetables and sugar. And now sugar prob probably plays a role here. But let me just point out that in 1811 in the town they called it of Boston, Massachusetts, which was, it was only about 30,000 people back at that time. But, um, cancer took the lives of one in 188 people.

That’s 0.5%. And people who think that physicians could not diagnose cancer deaths, people don’t realize how smart physicians were in the, in the 18th and 19th centuries. There were, they did not miss anything when it came to physical exam. ’cause that’s all they have. I have a library of, of textbooks from the 19th century.

But anyway. So it was easy to diagnose cancer deaths in the end, always. And, uh, anyway, so, but you can see by 1900 cancer deaths were up to 5.8%, which is one in 17 deaths. And then clear over in 2010, cancer took the lives of almost one in three people. It’s 31.2%, if I remember right. Oh, there it is. 31.1%.

There we go. So you can see that between, in a 200 year period, from 1811 to 2010, um, cancer deaths went from one in 188 to almost one in three. Why? Well, I mean, I think the primary reason is vegetable oils and, um, and we, I, since you’ve got Clement ips work, uh, coming up, we can get into that. But, um, but you know, they’re, because vegetable oils are pro oxidative, pro-inflammatory, toxic and nutrient deficient, that just drives.

Um, a metabolic environment. Um, that’s perfect. That’s, you know, that’s, it’s just perfect to drive cancer. Um, yeah. When you, when you have, uh, fat soluble vitamin deficiencies and other nutrient deficiencies combined with the toxicity, the pro oxidative and toxic environment that you have in, in, in a high omega six vegetable, l laden diet, that is the perfect recipe to produce cancer.

And Yeah. And it’s through, I think through the mitochondrial dysfunction. Absolutely. And that’s what you’re seeing here with the obesity, diabetes, these types of things are basically earlier stages or progressive stages of mitochondrial dysfunction. Yeah. Potentially moving us towards overt mitochondrial dysfunction with cancer.

Um, through the mechanisms that you describe in which we have here to actually discuss a little bit as well. When you have mitochondrial dysfunction, you lose cellular power. You cannot manage, um, DNA replication and DNA repair and all of these things, if you mitochondria are damaged ’cause you don’t have the energy to do it.

Um, it’s just like being a person, being very, very sick. You know, they can’t take care of their, they can’t work and they can’t take care of their house or whatever. It’s the same at the cellular level and the cells are just a microcosm of the, the whole body. That’s the big major driver. Now, sugar is an issue.

Um, un unquestionably to me, if your diet is not perfectly nutrient sufficient because sugar is a nutrient deficient food. And, um, if it takes up a fourth of, I’m sorry. Yeah. Fourth of your diet, 21% of American’s diet in 2010. That’s. If you replace that 21% of your diet, those sugar with, I don’t know, you know, apples and um, bananas or something that’s, that’s provides nutri, you know, b, b vitamins, magnesium, potassium, calcium and so forth.

This is much more, um, protective, I guess I’ll put it, you know, protective of your, of your physiology, of your cellular function. I would agree. I think that, I think that fundamentally the carbohydrate sources that I think would be optimal to consume would include whole foods sources. So you’re looking at tubers, you’re looking at whole fruits, and so you have the vitamin and mineral content and then you also have the polyphenol compounds, which di have direct antioxidant effects, help to prevent against oxidative stress in the cell and improve mitochondrial function, microbiome composition, things like this, which is, uh, I think a lot of them are actually.

Opposition to excessive intakes of, of polyunsaturated fatty acids because they, they’re at multiple steps. They’re actually protecting it against some of their, their negative effects. And, and one thing that’s interesting in this graph is that sugar and consumption, as you talked about in the early two thousands or or late 19 hundreds actually decreased.

And despite cancer, deaths still continuing to re increase. So the cancer death curve actually parallels. Ve vegetable oil consumption, more so than it actually parallels sugar consumption. It’s not a call for tons of sugar intake, but it’s more of a call to highlight how problematic vegetable oils actually are and, and show the relationship with cancer deaths.

Once again, I, I don’t, I, I just don’t want to be, uh, uh, called out a saying. I’m in support of high, high sugar diets. You know, in 19th century Americans, they’re, they, they loved their desserts. This is why the sugar consumption was going up even in the 19. You can see it in the late, the 1850 on it’s going way up.

Why? Why? Well, because I mean, pies, um, and, you know, desserts they took up, like if you go back to the, all those cookbooks, um, from the 19th century and you, and, and if you look at, you know, restaurant menus and so forth. There was that, like the cookbooks, they took up about a fourth, I think it was, of the typical cookbooks were dessert.

Things like apple pie. Why would it not be? Everybody loves a good dessert. I know. Well, and this is the thing, this is why I, this is why I think it’s so important to understand these principles because people get this idea in their head, well, they can never have a dessert again, and they could never have two teaspoons of sugar in their coffee or whatever, and they’re missing the point.

That’s, that’s not gonna save you, you know, or that’s not the, that’s not the problem. You know, this is why your book is so important, because it’s important to know what the actual problem is when you are treating a dysfunction. So even if you have somebody who you’re working with, maybe they’ve been seed oil free for God knows how long, but they’re iron overloaded from whatever their diet is.

That is the fundamental problem, right? But say you have your typical American, right? They’re obese, they’re pre-diabetic, uh, they’re potentially, they have a bad CAC score. Their lipid panel doesn’t look good, all this type of stuff. And that circumstance. You could start to look at the diet and I, I see this and it’s like, oh yeah, I eat out, I eat this, I eat that.

And it’s like linoleic acid consumption, ce oil consumption through the roof in the diet. And then there’s rank nutrient deficiencies in the diet. And then to be fair, a lot of clients I’ve worked with who are dealing with obesity are not over consuming calories maybe on some days in the week. They are, a lot of times they’re actually under consuming most days across the week.

And I would, as I would say, if you average caloric consumption, for some people they’re actually lower. They’re, they’re running at deficit levels, yet they’re not losing weight. And I think maybe there was a period of time where they loaded their tissues in these types of fats, which altered metabolic function.

And then now they can actually get by on less of, uh, less to. Intake, but I, a lot of clients I’m working with or that I’ve seen actually have a very low caloric intake, and I have to bump their caloric intake up to an appropriate level by adjusting their macros and making sure that I replete their micronutrients and then they start to lose weight.

I’m not putting them in a caloric surplus. I. I just don’t have them in a 50% deficit. I have them more in a 20% deficit, which is still an increase. So I think you see a lot of this, um, where people are, you know, if they’re coming from that, that background, that is the problem in these circumstances, if you’re coming from a different setup, like you, you wanna look and say, Hey.

Maybe this person who, who came from carnivore, maybe they have gut issues, maybe they’re iron overloaded. But for a large portion, and I think this is what your work is targeting, is a large portion of the average population who is low, doesn’t really pay that much attention to their diet, is creating a variety of metabolic diseases from loading up on some of these fats.

And we’re seeing the trends here in the data. And it’s not related to that teaspoon of sugar you’re putting in the coffee. And I just wanna shift here ’cause this is some, this is something that I think is helpful to see is you have a graph here of China. And China, as you discussed, is some of the lowest sugar consumption in the world.

And we don’t see the same parallel. So you can say like, oh, maybe there is some parallel in the other graph, even though on the back end you see a change. But that doesn’t, that doesn’t change, that relationship doesn’t play when we look at the data with China here. Yeah. This is the reason that I, for each country, I mean I present them.

Um, not just to keep, uh, adding, um, evidence, but for specific reasons. In this one I presented partly because what it has down there on the bottom is China’s sugar consumption is the eighth lowest in the world. Eighth lowest. It’s about, um, 60 to 80 calories since about 1980. Um, oh, there we go. Well, anyway, yeah, that, that, uh, sugar consumption has, has been flat essentially.

I ev always, you know, food consumption has a saw tooth pattern typically. Um, but you can see that it’s virtually flat since about the 1980s. Um, very, very low consumption. Um, um, a few, you know, a few teaspoons a day, right? And, um, but there, let’s look at, so we’ll just go to their overweight and obesity. It was about 15%.

I think that’s around 1990, increased to about 45% their overweight and obesity, or increased to about 45% their total overweight and obesity by 2011 or so. So overweight and obesity tripled, and cancer was around 500, I think it’s 495, um, per hundred thousand. This is new incidents, major cancers. Right. And it increased over the next 30 years roughly to um, 1500 per hundred thousand is what that was.

So it also there cancers tripled. While the, while their sugar consumption is very small and flat, but look at their TU oil consumption Climbing from what, around 30 calories per person per day back in 1961. All the way up to over 200 calories per person per day. Well, that turns out to be more than a sevenfold increase.

So massive increase of VE oils. Sugar is flat, overweight, obesity and cancer incidents massively increasing inside per a hundred thousand people in China. Just to show the lack of relationship with sugar, ’cause you hear on the hear all the time, well, sugar feeds cancer, right? Sugar feeds cancer cells, and it’s this focus on what are cancer cells using as a substrate.

But it’s the, I think the bigger question is what in, was it inducing the cancer in the first place? Right. And I think the relationships that we’re seeing here are potentially implicating seed oils, vegetable oils. Right. And I, and again, not advocating for sugar consumption, um, you know, but, but taking sugar and carbohydrates out of your diet if you, even if you have cancer, will not fix your blood sugar.

In fact, it, I, I’ve seen it many times go up and I don’t even work with clients, but I don’t know if you’ve seen that yet, Mike, but I see people remove, they go on a zero carbohydrate diet. Um, they’re totally keto and they’re, um, hemoglobin A1C goes up. In other words, the, so the area under the curve for their blood sugar is actually probably typically higher.

And I’ve seen it even in close friends and researchers that’ve experienced this. Um, one of whom, Suzanne Alexander, my co-author on this book, um, the Ancestral Diet Revolution, um, she had her hemoglobin, A1C when she was a vegan maybe eight, 10 years ago, was like 4.9, and she went to a carnivore diet, and her hemoglobin A1C went to like 5.8 on carnivore.

Yeah. And so what, what, so what just all it takes is one case to see that. And, and so these people who say, well, you know, you can’t have carbohydrates or sugar because you’re feeding the cancer. Well, this, you know, one case. Blows that theory out of the water. Well, the thing is, is that, and this, I actually see this very regularly ’cause a large portion of the population that I work with are people who’ve actually run the dietary gauntlet.

They’re coming out, they’ve done, they started with low carb, they got into paleo, they got into keto, they got into keto, intermittent fasting, paleo. And then they make their way to carnivore. And then at you get to the bottom of the funnel at carnivore and it’s like, where do I go next? Mm-hmm. Jump into bioenergetic.

And then, then they go through bioenergetic and then I start, start to work with them and I get to see their labs all throughout that timeframe. And typically the, when you run the low carb diets, you basically push up gluconeogenesis. Yeah. So your liver starts producing carbohydrate, which will give you a higher baseline blood glucose level and a higher fasting blood glucose level, which will then increase your average hemoglobin A1C values visits, A, a, a, basically a look at your three, three month average, 90, the average of blood glucose values.

And so again, the problem fundamentally. It’s not even carbs versus fats. I think both macronutrients are essential. The question is how, what amount in your diet’s gonna work for you? I think across all the spheres, low carb, keto, paleo, bioenergetic, I think a lot of these fears while at odds around carbs versus fat tend to agree to a large extent on the problem with seed oils and the polyunsaturated fatty acids.

And just bringing it into picture here with the, with the metabolic dysfunction, this is a study you cited, um, basically showing changes in linoleic acid consumption and cancer incidents in a rat study, which kind of goes hand in hand with what we’re saying. So yeah, this is my, um, my favorite research.

Mm-hmm. On, uh, cancer. This is done by Clement IP ip. So what he did in this case is he varied the omega six lily acid, the seed oil content from, um, starting at about 0.4%, I think it was. And then it went all the way up to about, um, uh, close to 12% on the omega six linoleic acid. Now the, so these, so these, so these animals were put on all these different diets, um, of seed oil content so that their omega six content would be different.

But then, but they were expo first, they were exposed to a carcinogen DMBA and um, in, in order to try to put them at risk of cancer. And so then they, and then they started these diets. With different omega six levels. And then a number of weeks later, assess them for mammary tumors. Basically the equivalent of breast cancer in humans.

And you can see that the breast cancer increased steadily from 0.4%, omega six linoleic acid or LA up to 4.4%. Omega six la Yeah, right there. And then you can see that it just sort of levels off that the increase in cancer does not, it does not keep increasing as you increase the omega six. Right. And this is exactly what we’re talking about.

So there’s a threshold effect here. This is what’s super interesting is so that that threshold is 4.4%, omega six linoleic acid. Um, well, all westernized countries for decades now have been over 4.4%. Omega six linoleic acid. Because if you get one, if you get one tablespoon of vegetable oil, probably even a couple of uh, teaspoons, you’re gonna be up to 4% omega six LA because that’s hard.

You need to get all the vegetable outta your diet to get your ve your omega six linoleic acid down to 1.1%. I’m just using that number because that’s where we’ve established that Americans were in 1865 was about 1.1% of their diet as omega six LA when we had no vegetable oils at all. So we modeled American diets, um, for that year.

You know, when all animals were naturally fed, there was no, there, they weren’t being fed corn and soy, which raises their animals, omega six or certain, you know, monogastric animals. Anyway, this is what people need to understand is you’re just by increasing your vegetable consumption, you are massively increasing your, your risk of cancer.

Almost a four times, three to four times change. Yeah. In incidents of tumors from the 0.5% to the 4.4% linoleic acid intake in the diet. Something that you said here, Dr. Clement ips research as well as others all strongly indicate that cancer induction promotion is sensitive to mega six linoleic acid consumption with a threshold about 4.4% of energy above, which almost no further increase in cancer risk occurs.

You then say, this knowledge would essentially nullify almost all studies that have attempted to find epidemiologic or population-wide studies that correlate seed oil consumption and cancer risk. Since virtually all developed countries are now consuming above 5% of calories energy as a mega six linoleic acid alone, this tapers into a big question that we’ll have is like, why?

Why do we have to look at some of this retrospective op observational epidemiologic evidence? And it’s like, I think perhaps this is one of the reasons, and then maybe some other, other, uh, reasons that you’d want to discuss. Some people, some people will say, quote, there’s no evidence that vegetable are dangerous.

Um, and the reason that they can kind of get away with saying this, you know, even, even, um, researchers, physicians, um, and so forth, even at major institutions can say this is because there has to date never been a randomized controlled clinical trial that could obviously suggest that seed oils are are very dangerous and that, um, and, and that, you know, um, saturated fats or animal fats are healthy and, and, and, and so, and the reason there never has been a study is because that that proves this really is, it’s multifold.

One of the reasons is that. The studies cannot be done. You, first of all, in, if you want to completely control the diets of people, you need to put them into a metabolic ward. Um, that means they, that all their, they need to go into a prison, uh, essentially, uh, uh, like a hospital type system where they, uh, they’re locked down.

They cannot leave because if they leave, then they can go eat at McDonald’s and eat their, you know, french fries and coke, and your study’s ruined. And so, um, so you have to keep them in a metabolic ward. Well, the longest that studies have ever complete completely controlled diets in humans is about six months.

I’ve never seen any that are any longer than approximately that. And the other studies that, you know, like the Minnesota coronary survey and the La American Veterans Trial and the rose corn, corn oil studies, all of these studies, um, we, you know, without getting into details. They’re, um, they’re helpful in this regard.

They do show overall that there’s, um, there was a little higher risk of, of, um, all cause mortality in people that were consuming vegetable oils. But overall, there’s very little difference in these. And this is because this studies are incredibly poorly controlled. I mean, just for example, with the La American Veterans Trial, which went on for eight years, you’ve got, you know, these are hospital studies.

How, how do you think many people were in the hospital for eight years? Right? So, I mean, the people are going in and out of the studies all the time, and then they’re, and they’re trying to control these diet, you know, they’re trying to put one group on on high seed oils and one unsaturated fats. Well, you can’t do it for most of the people.

Were only in there for an, I think it was a year and a half. And so, but even by the end of that, even the La American Veterans Trial, you see more people dying of. Of cancers that were on the high seed oil diet. This is the reason that I do this retrospective, observational epidemiologic. These studies like we’re looking at here today is because we have evidence, as you’ve already seen in food consumption in the United States, going back to 1822, right?

We’ve got sugar and we’ve got vegetable going all the way back to its inception in 1866 when it was first consumed in the us. We’ve got that data and we’ve published it, and so you can take all that evidence and then do what we’re doing here today, con, compare. Compare and contrast that with the increases in the prevalence and incidents of all of these conditions.

This is what we have to do. This is what Westin a price did. You can, so the, you and you have to think about the fact that many of the diseases that we are so concerned with today, um, coronary heart disease, stroke, many midlife cancers, um, Alzheimer’s disease, dementia, age-related macular degeneration. How many, how many of us see people that have these before age 40?

And the answer is almost none. Right? So that tells us immediately. ’cause we know that when babies are born and they’re drinking, you know, they’re, they’re getting processed foods and their, sometimes they’re very first food. They’re consuming processed foods including seed oils and sugars and refined flowers and all this junk, um, their entire lives.

And they don’t get heart attacks and strokes and. And many midlife cancers and Alzheimer’s know this till they’re 40, 60, 70, 80 years old, right? And so you have to think about the incubation period. So here’s the deal is since vegetable oils have, um, the fatty acids live in our body, fat are adipose, um, for about, um, a half life of 600 to 680 days, you can round it off to about two years.

And since the you can turn, it takes three years to turn over all of your body fat. This means that if you were ever to properly con, you know, conduct a study of a people on seed oil diets versus saturated fat diets or animal fat diets, first you’d need to put everybody on an ancestral diet. Meaning no seed oils, no cafo raised animals, very few nuts and seeds.

To get their omega six down, you take, you need to put ’em on the diet. So you have a washout period of three years. To get everybody down to an omega six in their adipose under 3% or about 3%. Then you start the study. Now you need to run the study for 40, 50 years, maybe 70, 60, or 70. So if you wanna wait until the year, you know, 2100, we could start those studies.

If you can get the people to do it. And if you wanna put ’em in a metabolic ward and make ’em live there the rest of their lives. ’cause that’s the only way I know to, to properly, you know, control everything they eat. But anyway, the studies will never, they’ve never been done and they never will be done is the bottom line.

So we have to look at this retrospective observational data. So what we’re seeing here, and what you’re saying is that you would need to first deplete people of the polyunsaturated fatty acids to get them to a state where they didn’t have that problem. And then you would have to run the studies and have them in a very controlled dietary setting, which is actually difficult because of how late in the food supply is with omega six polyunsaturated fatty acids in the form of seed oils.

And, and then on top of that, I think on the flip side you have a circumstance where, because it takes time to accumulate some of these in the tissues and their effects take time to develop inside the mitochondrial membranes and components like this. It you also, it takes a period of time before you start to see the damaging effects of seed oils take place.

’cause there’s also multiple systems in the body to try to protect this. So it takes a while for the effects to occur, which is why you’re seeing the diseases occur later on in life. And then in order to reverse it or get a setup where you wouldn’t have people have high amounts of these components in their tissues, you would actually have to, it would take a long time or you have to start when their children essentially.

Yeah. And, and even potentially with the mother because the, the fatty acid composition of human breast milk will change with some of the fats present in the diet. So you’d have to start even, even before, um, conception as well. ’cause the components in the mother’s diet will affect the construction of the tissue of the child.

And then the breast milk will change the types of fats that the infants incorporating in their tissues. So it, this study would be very difficult to actually run, but I think it’s helpful to see both ends of the spectrum here. That one, you have a whole population that’s been laid in with these types of fats, and it takes a long time for them to be depleted of them.

And then on top of that, it also does take some time, years to see the effects because they have to accumulate in the tissues to some extent. And the body does have protective systems in here. So that this is something that’s talked about in the biogenic sphere is around that, you know, four year, three to four year timeframe to actually deplete polyunsaturated fats.

I mean, here’s a, here’s a common thinking is that. Um, WW we can’t figure out anything if we don’t have a randomized controlled clinical trial. And this is so incredibly false. We make causal inference decisions all the time that things, cause One thing I would say to, you know, to anybody, first of all, if, do you believe smoking causes lung cancer?

And if they said yes, and I would say, well, do you have a randomized controlled clinical trial? You know, did, did, were there ever 1,013 year old children, um, randomized 500 to smoking and another 500 not smoking. And they followed ’em for 50 years to, to find out that those that smoked had a 10% chance of getting lung cancer 50 years later.

’cause that’s what it is. You know, because the non-smokers get lung cancer too. Right. Um, but it’s only about one 10th. Uh, or, or one 15th as much as the smokers. I could give a thousand, you know, examples, but we, we make causal inference, um, conclusions constantly without randomized controlled trials. People that you know, that think that, um.

You know, we must have these trials. Well, that’s just false. You know, we can, you can look at this evidence retrospectively and you know, I mean, it’s, it, it’s, it’s clear. It’s, you know, it’s what, it’s what we must do all the time. Anyway, that’s enough of that. I just had to say that I. Before we wrap up here, I wanna just briefly touch on some of the mechanisms in which the polyunsaturated fats are causing these problems so that we can in line with that, talk about some of the ways that people can protect themselves from this.

Because I think the, the takeaways for people is they wanna know, okay, like Chris, I see this data, it’s, this is amazing. It’s really helpful to see this, but like, what do I do? How do I actually protect myself? And for me, that’s something that I focus on heavily. ’cause my goal is to try to help people resolve these, these metabolic problems, these concerns, and kind of reverse some of the damage that gets done from the seed oils plus micronutrient deficiencies, et cetera.

Because they, it’s synergistic, right? Because you have oxidative stress, you don’t have enough antioxidants, now you’re exposed in the book, you, you tie in a couple ways that they actually cause problems. You also have mechanisms that are pretty clear as far as how the seed oils are actually causing these problems.

Um, I’ve broken them down here for us. And again, from your book, you have the oxidative stress concern. We have the inflammatory concern, conversion to inflammatory meters. Then we have the toxic lipid M products. Then we have their effects of mitochondrial function. And then the last one is the, the nutrient deficiencies.

Yeah, I mean, I, and I would just say briefly about some of those that the, the, to me, Mike, um, and Ethan, I think that, um, oxidation is tremendously more damaging than inflammation. But, and interestingly, the inflammation follows it, but if you think about it, you know, the, like heavy metal toxicity, um, yeah, I like to use the example of arsenic, um, arsenic kills because of oxidation, not inflammation.

Um, and it can kill you in one day, or, you know, on low dose it can kill you in months or years. Um, and this is exactly what vegetable oils are doing. And, um, vegetable oils in a nutshell, they’re very, very damaging to the mitochondrial machine. Um, because they, they damage the cardiolipin molecule that holds the, um, the hydrogen proton gradient within the inter mitochondrial membrane that actually is used to produce the power.

So those hydrogen protons actually come through this inter mitochondrial membrane through the a tpa, and they, they, um, phosphorylate a DP to a TP, the, the energy currency. And, uh, yeah, here it is. And, uh, but when in a high, in a high omega six diet, this membrane becomes leaky and it develops pores. This is just one example of how a high omega six diet damages your mitochondria.

And so these hydrogen protons can leak through that, that little opening, that pore there instead of going through the a TP synthase that they normally would in a low. Omega six LA diet, the fact that omega sixes are inflammatory, that’s accepted by every researcher, physician who knows anything about it around the world, um, that the omega six downstream products are inflammatory.

And then omega six, uh, lin like acid la when it undergoes, um, oxidation, it, um, produces advanced lipid oxidation in products or ales. These are things like, um, four hydroxy, nool, carbox, ethyl pyro, Aline nine and 13 Hode. Yeah, all of those. Um, and these are all, these are collectively, as you can see, there are cytotoxic, genotoxic, mutagenic, carcinogenic, atherogenic, thrombogenic, and obesogenic.

These are poisons folks. Plain and simple. And, and this, this right here, this one thing, um, can account for a whole lot. Of our disease, just the toxicity that comes directly from consuming these vegetable oils. I mean, for, they’re in the, the, these products are in the oils when they’re heated. And if you, they’re not there, you’ll produce ’em in your bottom, in your body through metabolism.

To make the seed oils, you have to heavily process them, right? So there’s a good chance they’re already, they already have lipid peroxidation products in them. Then a lot of people cook with them, which is even worse. ’cause now you’re heating them up directly in metal. And then when you digest them, they can interact with stomach acid, iron in a digestive tract, and then also bile acids and other components inside the GI tract, other metals that can further damage them.

And then when they get incorporated in your cellular structures around your mitochondrial membranes, which you’re talking about here, because the mitochondrial, because they’re very fragile, because they structure contains double bonds, that makes them very fragile. Then they start to incorporate in the membrane.

And you have a bunch of oxidative reactions going on in handling of electrons and production reactive oxygen species. They can actually be tagged by those reactive oxygen species and broken apart. ’cause essentially the reactive oxygen species are gonna break the fats around their double bonds. And then there’s two, you cite a mechanism in the book where the high amount of linoleic acid inside mitochondrial membranes can lead to damage to cardiolipin or modification of cardiolipin.

And interestingly, it gets modified with, uh, polyunsaturated fatty acids that are even more unsaturated like ar arachidonic acid and cosa. He noic acid, which is your, your omega threes, which further damages function. And then now you have a leaky membrane that doesn’t allow for the formation of a DP is or a TP because essentially the, the protons build up.

So you have this circumstance where you have really fragile fats. Are probably already damaged before you’re going into your system. And then when you eat them, they’re damaged, you damage them while you’re pro digesting them. And then on top of that, when they get incorporated into cellular structures on top of, in the face of nutrient deficiencies, like inadequate vitamin C, inadequate vitamin E, inadequate copper, zinc, manganese, even iron, which causes peroxidation but’s involved with the antioxidant enzymes.

Well, now you have a circumstance where the fats get destroyed. And then you have, then you get, not only are they producing those, those, uh, inflammatory meters, which we’ll talk about in a sec, they’re producing general, uh, oxidized lipid end products that are toxic in and of themselves. And so it’s like, it’s a recipe for disaster.

’cause the fats are easily destroyed. They’re probably already destroyed going in. They produce toxic products, they damage structural components to the cell, including the mitochondria. And so it’s like the oxidation and the inflammation are just going hand in hand. They’re working, it’s driving everything across the board to have to load your tissues up on this, the way I typically described it in other podcasts is you’re basically just loading up your tissues on dynamite.

And so, yeah, maybe they’re fine while you’re fine, but as soon as you have an oxidative, like a significant oxidative stress or significant insult to the system where you’re depleted of antioxidant defenses, well now you may have, now you can light the fuse and it’s game over. It’s, it’s a huge problem. I don’t know how anybody can look at all of this evidence and then just say, no, seed oils are fine, but you know, it’s, um, people are blind and they’re biased and then their bias, their biases, um, are very, very powerful.

Sometimes we, and we, and we all can be this way. Um, you know, it’s hard not to, to develop biases and to be open-minded, but if you’re gonna be a scientist about it, you better have an open mind and be willing to look at all of the evidence. And, and, and this is why I’m really slow to come to the public because things that I, you know, I thought, you know, three years ago, I don’t, maybe I’ve changed my mind today, um, as I learn more.

Um, so I’m very, very slow to come forward with these things. Mike, you, um, you may quote, only have an rn, but you deserve an honorary PhD. I mean that with all my heart. You’ve done a fabulous job of learning this stuff, and you guys have done just tremendous work. I’m really honored to be on your show. I truly am.

I really appreciate it, both of you. Awesome. Awesome. And, and do you want to tell people too where, where they can find you as well? They can find me, well mostly on YouTube. They can find my book, the Ancestral Diet Revolution on, uh, Amazon or wherever books are sold, chris kenobi.com. Anyway, it’s been an honor, guys.

I really appreciate it. Thanks for joining us, Chris. Um, and I also wanted to mention just for everybody who’s interested is that you will actually be, this is something that you had told me and I wanted to shout it out. You’ll actually be speaking at the public health collaboration in uk, in the uk, London, yeah, on May 31st and June 1st.

So if anybody’s interested to hear Chris present, and I heard, you know, maybe through the grapevine that there may be a debate, maybe not. We’ll see. Yeah. Um, hoping at the public health collaboration in, in London, the uk. And of course we will drop the links that Chris mentioned below in the description so you guys can check out his book.

You can check out his website and the different foundations he’s associated with. Thanks for joining us, Chris. Yeah, thank you. See you later. See you.